I sit here in trepidation. Because what I have to say today might upset a few people. I've got some words for my fellow Christians. The born again, baptized, Spirit filled variety. And I've got a few caveats before I begin.
1. These are my opinions. I am not saying with 100% confidence that I'm absolutely right on all of them.
2. I believe with all my heart that the Bible is truth. If you disagree with me please do it biblically. It's the language I speak.
3. I am not trying to start an argument. I'm just asking my brothers and sisters to consider my words. Disagreements are invited. But any poster must keep in mind that I have four small children and am a little short on time. Please keep your words as few as possible if you want me to respond, and be direct.
4. Some of you might agree with me. Please say so, because if we continue to hide behind traditions that aren't based on truth then we'll have a hard time growing into a new place.
Here goes. I hate this. I hate picking fights. Even though that's not really what I'm doing.
Here are my top three things that I was taught growing up (Christian school, mostly) that I've come to realize weren't exactly biblically originated.
1. Dancing and Rock and Roll is of the devil. I think we're all pretty much past this but I'm just saying.
2. It's wrong to drink even a sip of alcohol. Actually, this is not just questionable, it is unbiblical. The Bible says at least once that wine is a gift to gladden the heart of man. What the Bible warns strongly against is abuse of alcohol. Drunkenness. This just goes right back to the garden. God said "Don't eat from that tree" and Eve added "And don't touch it either." Why in the world do we always think we have to add addendum's onto God's decrees?
3. The Pilgrims/Puritans were a bunch of courageous, holy people who risked their lives to begin a country where we could follow God the way we want to and because of that America belongs to Christians. It's true that they left England and came here to start a new way of life where they could be free of persecution. But in truth most of them just started persecuting one another instead. They were a narrow minded, nasty bunch that basically wanted to start their own religion based on legalism. I didn't like hearing this when I started reading into it and realized everything I'd been taught was a great stretch from the truth. And again, I'm sure there were a few decent people who had good intentions. But living the Puritanical life wasn't what we claim we should "get back to." It was hell.
This is why I don't buy into the "reclaim America for Jesus" crusade. There have been many strong, able leaders in our country that loved the Lord. There still are. It's true we are free (at the moment) to mostly worship the way the Bible instructs us to. That is a blessing from God. I'm VERY grateful for all the men and women who have given their lives to keep this country free. It is an oasis in a sad world. But sometimes the things that Christians get up in arms over embarrass me as a fellow believer. Maybe it's just that some people who call themselves Christians don't really know what God is all about. To know, all you have to do is look at Jesus. He expected persecution. He withstood it. He never tried to take over any countries or crusade against evil empires. Because he knew that it wasn't time for his kingdom yet. If we belong to him, it's not time for our kingdom yet either. So we need to get over America belonging to us. It doesn't.
Well, I said it. Maybe if we all took a good hard look at what we're standing for and shook off all the excess that we've added to what God said, people might take us a little more seriously. Maybe if we tried building relationships and telling the truth about how broken we are or were and what God did or is doing to fix us then we might be able to help others.
Leave a comment if you have something to say. Thanks for reading.
Goodnight.
I have lots to say. And I'll say it. Soon.
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime, waste some of your precious quiet time reading what this guy has to say about some of these things:
http://www.gregboyd.org/
You know, since I can't articulate my own thoughts. But don't you worry; I have plenty. Of thoughts.
And by waste, I mean use profitably.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. He sounds like a shake-it-up kind of guy. I thought of some biblical problems to some of the things he was discussing, but I don't know that his point was to say they were absolutely true anyway, just to get readers to think about them a little more objectively. Obviously I agree with him in some areas.
ReplyDeleteAnd this post comes from that conversation we had recently. I'd already been thinking them but talking with you really cemented them in my mind.
Reading some more from that website - I think the point is not that he is absolutely right on all points, but that he is seriously thinking through things that most of us won't. Personally, I have thought through most of these things but I don't usually have the guts to speak up. Kudos to him for doing so.
yes, yes and YES.
ReplyDeletethose last two have been bugging me for awhile. it really bothers me when christians claim america was founded on Christ. most of the founding fathers were deists, but not believers. big difference.
this country is not my home. i belong somewhere else.
AMEN!!!!
ReplyDeleteI have mixed thoughts on some of these.
ReplyDeleteDancing and Rock and Roll -- While I think some dancing and music with a beat is not wrong, I also think the "world" has changed it in some ways that are definitely not God-honoring. (Did that make sense.) I try to teach my kids that some kinds of dancing are okay, because it is just for fun. But that certain kinds should only be done with their spouse, as they could lead to impure thoughts and actions.
Alcohol -- The Bible says do not abuse alcohol. Personally, I try to teach my kids not that is extremely evil but that for many one sip soon leads to abuse of alcohol. I talk about the damage it does to their body when abused and the harm it has a "crutch."
Pilgrims/Puritans -- I commend them for having the courage to leave what they knew to start a new colony where they could have religious freedom. I have not researched the groups, but from different things I have read it does seem that the Puritans specifically soon started their own form of persecution.
The Bible will always be the only standard we need to live our lives by, as born again Christians.
so when are we going out for that drink?? ;)
ReplyDeletethank you for being honest and sharing your opinions even if they aren't agreed upon by everyone.
I enjoyed this. But again, I am a rebel. ha.
I also grew being told many of these same things.
ReplyDeleteDancing-- well I've got no rhythm so i choose not to dance (with the exception of sometimes with my kids to their kid music) I agree with your annonymous poster though that some types of dancing these days, I would encourage my children to avoid.
As far as alcohol, my family has chosen to avoid it altogether (Jeff and I) because of his background and experience. For my dear hubby, it is better to avoid it altogether than to be tempted, however, we have family and friends who have the occasional drink. That took some getting used to after what I always heard as a child.
Thanks for sharing your opinions. I too really enjoy reading your posts.
I think we are saying the same thing, anonymous. You are adding a caution. And I agree on all counts. Music is a powerful force. I'm speaking of music and dancing that glorifies God, which it will if it is from a right heart.
ReplyDeleteI will add one thing - as far as the alcohol is concerned it should be a personal decision between someone and God. I'm speaking against leaders that preach that alcohol is a sin in and of itself. Of course it is not a sin to abstain from ever drinking alcohol if you are concerned that you might have a problem with it. But it is legalism to abstain from it just because one thinks it makes them more acceptable in God's eyes.
The way I look at? I have a problem with sugar. I can't seem to stop eating it once I start. So I avoid sugar most of the time. And as it is against the law for anyone under 21 to drink, that's a give as well. But I've been having occasional glasses of wine for years, and have never been tempted to drink more than one.
You are absolutely right. The Bible is the standard. And where we are unclear as to what the Bible is specifically saying, the Spirit teaches our hearts what is right and wrong. And it's not always the same for every person.
Thanks for all the honest comments!
Steph, I agree with totally avoiding it for some people. I have many in my family who have struggled with the addiction and choose to avoid it because one drink does entice them back into abusing it.
ReplyDeleteI do hope anyone who knows me understands my attempt at wit and sarcasm too on many of my posts. It's difficult to distinguish on the written word. :)
I can't dance either. I'd like to take classes with my hubby or something, but I think the two of us are better off playing sports together instead. :)
I can't dance either. SIGH. But for anyone that can - go for it! :)
ReplyDeleteseth and i are planning to take lessons. he has fabulous rhythm. me...i'll need some help.
ReplyDeleteand i also think our wedding reception would have sucked a lot less if people were allowed to dance. but that's just me. ;)
You said to be brief if I wanted a response. You don't have to respond, but I'm incapable of being brief, so please forgive.
ReplyDeleteDancing--needs to be defined. Obviously there is dance in praise to God of which He approves. But modern dance is a different subject. God's Word speaks several ties about sensuality. (Mk 7:22; Rom 13:13; 2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:19, etc.) Sensuality is something we today often accept as normal. It's part of much of our advertising as well as our entertainment. The culture has desensitized us. Our clothing often reflects it. But did you read the verses? God without exception lists sensuality as SIN! Can you honestly say that much of modern dance does not expect you to move your body parts in a way that is sensual?
Now Rock and Roll. That term also covers a wide variety of music. Do you understand the origination of that term? It was a reference to sexual intercourse little known to the naive public. Those that called it such thought it was a great joke on society and they insisted on keeping the tag.
With music as well as with dance, you must go back to the idea of sensuality. Yes, a driving beat is involved, but I frankly don't expect anyone who has become accustomed to Rock--Christian or secular--to quickly be able to recognize how the music affects us. More desensitizing. Don't merely tell me how it makes you FEEL "closer to God." I have noticed how music can get a large group feeling "closer to God." The bottom line is that the people in the crowd WITHOUT Christ are basking in this "good feeling," too, and they don't even know God. But music can't truly get anyone closer to God. Conviction of sin and repentance is what brings one closer to God--not a feeling.
There is much more that could be said, but I'll stop. (Don't everyone say, "Praise the Lord!") You are welcome to your opinion. But I must be frank. If youhave never falled on your face before a Holy God and begged Him to let you know His opinion on the subject, I care very little what you have to say. Before you respond, in humility, go to your heavenly Father and ask Him what He thinks. Don't expect a succinct answer the next day. But don't quit asking. There is an answer.
Okay now Alcohol--Just realize that the wine in the Bible was not necessarily alcoholic. In fact, context may be the only way to determine that sometimes. "Good wine" in the first century was wine that had not yet begun to ferment. Even the wine that was fermented did not have the alcohol content we have today. We work hard to intensify present day fermentation.
ReplyDeleteGod contrasts being filled with wine and being filled with the Spirit because of the element of control. Alcohol--even when you have not reached a point of drunkenness, has begun to control you. It loosens the tongue, lessen inhibitions. I don't know about you, but I don't want to take any chance that something other that the Holy Spirit controls me. How about you? By the way, Norm has a Bible Study on this subject that covers it much better if anyone is interested.
We do agree on your final statement. I long every day for Jesus's return. I can't wait! Something within just keeps whispering that the time is near.
ReplyDeleteI like to write books too. :)
As for the other things you've said, I admit that I cannot agree with some of it. (Although much I agree with wholeheartedly, and more importantly, the Bible agrees!) But there are a few points that just don't sound biblical to me. I don't have the time I'd like to have to respond to each point, but I will say some of it seems like "traditions made of men" that do little but to alienate brothers and sisters in Christ. And I have spent a great deal of time on my knees coming to grips with the legalism I was taught in my school as a child and which a few years ago affected deeply my church I've been a part of for 15 years now.
And no, I don't know it all. I haven't researched perfectly and I don't have a time machine to really see what the wine was like in the Bible or a Puritan's life to be my guide. That's why I said I can't claim perfection. I am just a person, sinful and at times "full of it." But I've heard enough of the contradictions to be suspicious of the whole truth as far as the history of our country and biblical history is concerned.
But I have learned to recognize the Spirit's voice, and I am convinced to the very depths of my soul that holding tightly to opinions that man has come up with and allowing them to divide and conquer within the Body of Christ is a tactic of evil that has always worked quite well. I realize some may say the same of me. But I used to believe all those things, before I started reading and understanding the Bible and history with a truly open mind to what the Spirit has to say. I should add that since the time a few years ago that my church began looking at things with a willingness to admit where we've been wrong biblically - we have grown so much. We have gained so much strength as we have let go of things that were keeping us apart without good reason and have truly developed unity I didn't know existed. I'm so thankful for my church family and for my pastor's relentlessness in pursuing Christ and living by the Word of God.
All I can do is ask that we all do the same, seek His face, and see what God does.
"Even so, come Lord Jesus!"
I wanted to add one more thing to clarify something I said. I used the words "dancing and rock and roll." I said it to be glib, but there is no way for the reader to know that and I realize that those words have different meanings to different people - especially those of previous generations. I should have said "moving joyfully to music with rhythm."
ReplyDeleteI'll go one more step and say that I really can't see any biblical basis for a case against music of any kind, in and of itself. Music is as sinful or as reverent as the words make it. Music in and of itself, through the eyes of Scripture, is a gift from God meant for the comfort and growth of believers. ("speak to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.")
I'd love to say more but duty calls! Thanks again for all the responses!
Blogger,
ReplyDeleteThanks for a series of interesting posts. Being open and honest in this post, knowing it would bring criticism, ought to be applauded.
To Teri,
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." George Washington, Treaty of Tripoli 1796.
Asserting that Thomas Jefferson was a christian because he used the legal term "the year of our Lord" on a document is like asserting everyone who uses the contemporary calendar is a christian because it uses Jesus's proposed birth date as a division point. Besides, this method of dating exists because it was done so by papal decree of Pope Gregory XIII in 1582. If you use the contemporary dating system, that must mean you are a Catholic, falling in line with papal decree. Additionally, this method of signing legal documents "in the year of our Lord" was followed for international documents because of international law, as set up at that time by the Dutch. And "thousands of documents with the words Jesus Christ" - is just untrue. What is your source. You may be referring to the debunked historical revisionism of David Barton. Barton has manufactured documents (ie lied) to support his assertions. He has been caught and has admitted to this, and has promised to correct future publications of his books. He continues to fail to do this.
Here are some of Thomas Jefferson's own words, as culled from his Collected Correspondences:
"It is not to be understood that I an with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist." (in a letter to John Adam)
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. Thay are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies." (letter to Dr. Woods.)
TJ calls the 4 gospel writers "grovelling authors" with "feeble minds", and of Paul he says "of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Corypeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."
In the gospel history of Jesus, Jefferson finds what he terms "a groundwork of vulger ignorance, of things impossible, of superstitions, fanaticism, and fabrications."
Terri, I ask you a direct question I hope you answer, now knowing the words of Thomas Jefferson on the gospels, Paul, and Jesus - will you continue to claim that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian. Please answer truthfully.
Regards.
(-D)
Wish I could have convinced my in-laws about the dancing part. I agree with sethswife. My wedding reception would have been a lot more enjoyable (aka sucked less) if we had had dancing. I also would have very much enjoyed dancing with my new husband.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on everything else also. I think that for most Christians abstaining from alcohol is a good thing b/c for a lot of people it can be a very slippery slope. But, if you know that it is not a temptation for you then go ahead.
Thanks for getting me thinking!
My wedding reception probably would have been more interesting with dancing as well. Unfortunately, the bride would have probably broken an ankle trying to dance. :)
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, just to reiterate again - anything that has a slipperly slope associated with it should be used with great caution. I think the main point is just not to judge fellow believers based on what they drink. (Which I did for many years, so I'm speaking from experience.)
Let me start by saying to "Blogger" that I'm sorry for confusing the issue about our forefathers by throwing in the comment about Thomas Jefferson. I was not at all insinuating that he was a Christian. I see no evidence of that. I was just surprised at his using Jesus name. I know that you mentioned the in the year of the Lord stuff, but that is not what I was talking about either. I didn't have much time to check it out, but I did go back and look at what other's have said about his beliefs. Though he never accepted the Bible and certainly not anything Paul had to say, he still had a respect of sorts for Jesus--not as God or the Savior, but just as a man. On the other hand, deists do have a respect for God. And Thomas Jefferson, though he was not a Christian still recognized that we have a creator and we would someday stand before God.
ReplyDeleteAs far as your anti-David Barton comments, be careful who you listen to. I went online to see who was saying what. I could not find anyone I would trust saying those things. In fact, judging only by who was saying those things, I would side with David Barton. I also thought that it was really funny that these people were talking about how Mr. Barton was altering the facts of history when the folks writing history books have been doing it for some time in the name of political correctness. Even twenty years ago, I checked out my child's history book and discovered the references to God were left out of Patrick Henry's speech as if they never happened. So to protect the feelings of those who are not Christian, we feel it necessary to hide the fact that men like Patrick Henry openly spoke of God in political meetings.
I know it is true that the Puritans did not extend freedom of religion to those who disagreed with them. That we got from the Separatists . Though I may disagree with some of what the Puritans did as well as others who came over in those early years, what you find over and over in their writings is a respect for Almighty God. Though some may not have been real believers, they saw a need for this country to honor God.
The morality of this country at its beginning was unquestionably Judeo-Christian. It was in the political writings. It was in the educational curriculum. Almost everyone in that day accepted the Ten Commandments as true whether they intended to obey them or not. Actually, that was still true when I was growing up.
ReplyDeleteSo if they weren't saved, but they raised their children with "good" morals, does that make any difference in God's eyes. Let me ask you this. Do you believe that if the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had not been filled with hatred, violence, and sexual sins, but instead had been moral people--though not true believers in the one true God--do you believe God would have sent fire from heaven to destroy them? I don't. I have had some say to me that you can't legislate morality. What do you mean? We do it every day. You can't murder or rape people. That's morality. You can't steal. That's morality. You can't lie in court. That's morality.
I can't figure out how people who believe we are just a colossal accident and are not responsible to a god or anyone else controls themselves. Why can't they do whatever they want. You say that we are not allowed to hurt others in society. If I am my own god, my own determiner of what is right and wrong, why should I listen to what anyone else says. But I really know why. It is because our society still has vestiges of the Judeo-Christian ethics remaining. What will it be like when those influences are gone?
I guess that what I am saying is that our nation was founded on those principles, and if we as Christians throw up our hands and say we can't do anything to help so we'll just sit back and wait for Jesus to come, I'm afraid our demise is sooner than later. Of course, the very best thing we can do is to tell all those around us that we are responsible to a Holy God, we will stand before Him some day and He provided a plan to save us from our sin through the death and resurrection of His Son Jesus. That is our #1 priority. But it is still true that God has placed us in a Republic where we have a right to speak, to vote, and to represent others. Like I said before, God created government. Why would He prefer us to do nothing and let the unbelievers have all the control? Just doesn't make any sense to me.
Now I want to add a little about the alcohol issue. Mandy, you said that you "haven't researched perfectly and don't have a time machine to really see what the wine was like in the Bible..." For your children's sake, maybe you should take the time to do that research or at least look into the research of others. I'm going to send you Norm's Bible study on the subject. I'm sure you don't really want it and you probably won't agree with all of it, but the Bible really does have a lot to say about drinking. And a simple study on the internet can affirm the statements about the wine in Bible days. I guess Norm is particularly adamant about drinking because he grew up in a house where drinking socially and drunkenness were both a part of life. He saw the misery and pain it brings. He drank before he came to know Christ and knows personally what it can do to a person.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I feel this is so important is because I fear for your children. I really don't think you will ever have a problem with drinking too much alcohol or becoming drunk. I have known others who have come to the conclusions you have and did not become a heavy drinkers. But as Norm travels around the country he meets a lot of different people. More than once he has had people attack him for preaching that drinking alcohol is wrong. But sometimes these people come to him later in the week asking for prayer and counsel. One such man came to him full of emotion. He said, "Brother Sharbaugh, you have to pray for my son." Norm responded, "Sure, what's the problem?" The man blurted out his response. "He's an alcoholic. And that's not the only time.
Please be careful with your little ones. They are so precious. God warns us in Matthew 18:6 about causing one of the little ones who believe in Jesus to sin. Be careful.
Teri, thank you for your comments. I see what you are saying about the founding fathers. And it's true that there was more of a respect for the authority of God and his Word at the beginning. And there's no denying that God has blessed our country abundantly because of the morality and the truths we have fought for.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, we can't make other people believe as we do just because we say so. If the majority of the people in this country want something different than what we've fought for, as sad as that is, it's going to happen. But it's not the end of the world. Even if America heads the same way as the rest of the world and most of history, Jesus will still be in charge someday. Hopefully soon. I'm just saying what the Bible already said. We're citizens of that kingdom, so we shouldn't despair about the kingdoms of this present world. They will all eventually decline no matter how much we wish they wouldn't.
And I want to reiterate strongly that I understand completely why anyone who has been touched by or had personally a history of alcohol abuse would of course want to never go near it. Of course. That's why the Bible warns so strongly against drunkenness.
Personally, if I never had another drink my life would not be affected in the least. I am not saying belligerently that I have the right to drink because I have a biblical loophole. Quite the opposite, and this is the key idea that I will teach my children "THE BIBLE ALONE."
People don't become alcoholics because of alcohol. They become alcoholics because they use alcohol to meet needs that only God can meet. This is exactly the same for people who use food to fill those needs. Or sex. Or any other thing that we can try to fill ourselves up with and be happy - and in the end we only find emptiness and sorrow because that place was meant to be filled up with Christ.
Which is exactly what I will teach my children. Believe me, I can easily become anxious worrying over them and what might become of them if I unknowingly make this mistake or that. All I can do is pray for them, teach them the Word, and live by the Spirit through the Word.
And I have that sort of "sigh of relief" in my spirit that the Holy Spirit gives us when we place something huge in his hands and beg for His direction and power. It will be okay. I will never be perfect, my children will never be perfect...
But Jesus will ever be perfect in our stead.
Thanks for the comments!
Terri:
ReplyDeleteYou said "if Thomas Jefferson was such a deist, why did he sign thousands of documents with the words, In Jesus Christ." I appreciate your back-pedaling in your more recent comment, but that statement can easily be read as claiming Thomas Jefferson was a lackluster Deist, and therefore a Christian. You also state you "didn't have much time to check it out" - this is apparent, next time do us the courtesy of checking out your facts before making such meaningless assertions.
You say you went back and looked at what other's had to say about TJ's beliefs. There is no dearth of primary resources - TJ's letters, speeches, writings - why not just look at what he himself had to say about his own beliefs. TJ respected Jesus the way he respected Confucius, Plato, Paine, et. al. To claim Deists respected "God", as if he were your Yahweh or Christ so misleading that it might be called a lie. Is the "God" of Muslims your "God"? Only if you believe that can you consider believing that TJ's "Creater" was your God. Show me the quotes and evidence that TJ expressed belief that he, or any Deist, would stand before your God someday.
As to David Barton, I listen to David Barton, who states he has made up quotes in the sense that he ascribes to Founding Fathers quotes that were not said by them but are in the spirit of what they believed, and that he promises to remove them from his website and form his publications, but has yet to do so. I question your ability to do online research, confirmation bias seems to be strong with you. Being against David Barton, is not that same as siding with traditional textbooks. I strongly feel the religious debates of our Founding Fathers should be included in school history, because the religionists lost over and over again. Any "removal" of such references would seem to be for the protection of people who were Christian, though it would feed nicely into their persecution complexes.
In short, concerning these matters, America decided to promote the freedom of religion. If you were in another country and a cleric of their major religion told you that you have the freedom of religion, but that freedom included choosing his religion, or choosing any other one, but that choosing a religion contrary to his would result in execution, would you call that freedom of religion? Now imagine a religion set up in which you can choose a religion for eternal bliss, or choose any other religion and be eternally tortured. Is there religious freedom in such a theology? The core of christianity is contrary to the religious freedoms of America.
(continued)
ReplyDeleteContinuing: Teri, what does "judeo-christian" mean? Your second post is rather incoherent to me. You say "I can't figure out how people who believe we are just a colossal accident and are not responsible to a god or anyone else controls themselves." Well, thank goodness most people figure this out. Your argument from ignorance ("I just can't figure out how") holds no sway. Do you think the ancient Hebrews had a sense that murder was wrong before Yahweh inscribed that commandment onto a stone tablet? What are "Judeo-Christian" ethics? Please be specific. In what way was the founding of our nation (particularly our founding documents), founded on these Judeo-Christian principles, as you say.
If, for example, we take the "Judeo" principles - you would probable agree that the Ten Commandments are a concise formulation in the Old Testament of these principles. For kicks, lets compare the Judeo principles of the Old Testament with the Founding document The Bill of Rights. Commandment One: Worship no God but me. Amendment one: Worship any god you see fit, or no god whatsoever ("freedom of religion"). Commandment Two: Have no idols. Amendment One: have any idol you want ("freedoms of speech/ religion"). Commandment Three: don't blaspheme. (Still) Amendment One: blaspheme all you want, to your heart's content ("freedom of speech"). Commandment Four and Five and Seven and Ten: keep the sabbath, honor your father and mother, no adultery, no coveting. Nowhere in the founding documents. Commandment Nine: do not bear false witness, pertains only in court; you may bear false witness to your heart's content otherwise (David Barton is a case in point). Commandments six and eight: do not kill or steal. These were parts of moral codes that exist long before God wrote down anything in stone. (And consider, whey did he not include something as simple as Do not Rape.)
It appears that the ideas of Judeo-christian morality were put forth by some of the Founding Fathers and then slapped into submission with the Bill of Rights. It took only One Amendment to bury the first four Commandments, the only four that have to do with specific aspects of "Judeo-christian" morality as expressed in the Ten Commandments.
I like your choice of Matthew 18:6. It is the same verse Martin Luther used to describe how Jews should be baptized - with a millstone around their neck and tossed from a bridge.
Regards.