The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease. - Voltaire
I can see it, Dr. G. You're already cringing in anticipation of what ridiculousness is about to flow from my mind this evening. It's okay.
I know I have no right to speak of such things, as I never took any higher science classes than high school biology and chemistry. I should be ashamed of myself for what I've been thinking lately. But I've found myself being more and more interested in herbs used for medicinal reasons.
Modern medicine is quite useful, as I've said before and willingly confess once again. I'm entirely grateful that my children will not likely die of fevers or complications of childhood illnesses. I am certainly appreciative in knowing that should some unthinkable accident occur - the amazing talents of surgeons and physical therapists are readily available in a moment's notice. It is a balm to my soul to know that antibiotics are still pretty good at killing bacteria before it kills me.
But I'm not so convinced that every little ache and pain we experience necessitates a trip to the doctor's office. I'm skeptical that the host of medicines we subject our bodies to help any more than they hurt in the long run. The more I go "natural" the more I realize how out of tune with our bodies we really are, and how the choices we make about what goes in affect our health and well being far more than anyone is willing to let on.
So that's why I've found myself wondering more and more about the "medicines" that people have been using for thousands of years. It's never been enough for me to hear an authority on any subject say something is so and accept it without further thought. I want to know whether it is a true statement or partially true or false, based on any myriad of reasons including what someone stands to gain by his claims. That's why I've decided to take our list of complaints in this household and do a little research and test a few claims.
So I look forward to getting back to you on this subject. And as always I invite you to share your own opinion, experiences or beliefs on the topic.
Goodnight!
Now you've done it. By specifically addressing me, you obligate me to respond. If only I didn't have to spend the day pumping people full of unnatural chemicals to counteract their poor lifestyle choices. Bwahahahahaha.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, I will have somewhat to say to thee on this topic. Later.
Traditional medicine had it's dominance over health care for thousands of years. It lost. Average life span was less than 35 years. Average birth survival was 20%, or less. Science based medicine began in early 20th century and life expectancy more than doubled. Death rates in infancy have nearly disappeared in developed secular countries.
ReplyDeleteDo you believe all those who are hawking herbs and traditional "medicines" are not in it for profit? They certainly will always have an audience. Do you feel the health care system, the one that advocates vaccines for children at a financial loss to themselves is purely profit motivated?
I agree, every little ache and pain should not seek a remedy from traditional or modern medicine. A large part of the health care field is educating people of this fact, when it could easily be encouraged to the financial gain of the practitioner.
I respect that one should be skeptical of claims, but skepticism is a stance of respecting evidence, and evidence is difficult to evaluate if one does not have collegiate training. When you "do a little research" - feel free to elaborate on it here in your blog and we can go through it.
You are purporting woo. Be careful. If others follow your lead, it may cause disease and suffering in the gullible.
The Voltaire quote is cute, but ironically placed atop an article in which you state "it has never been enough for me to hear an authority on any subject say something is so and accept it without further thought." Particularly because it hints at the fact that you will appeal to non-authorities for claims to purport. The quote could likely equally be applied to herbalists, homeopaths, chiropractors, pastors, astrologers, theologers, &c.
Regards. Be mindful of what you eat and get some exercise.
I shall have more to say a bit later, but I want to start by asking you to expound a bit on this:
ReplyDelete"It's never been enough for me to hear an authority on any subject say something is so and accept it without further thought."
Excellent. The Apostle Paul and the Bereans will be proud. But I must press a bit here. How did these authorities in the fields of health, medicine, and science become authorities? How did they arrive at their conclusions? How will you arrive at your conclusions? Will you be conducting your own randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled studies with great enough power to support your conclusions?
Why must an authority on a subject be presumed to stand to gain something? Most studies are designed to take that out of the equation. If they are not, they are not held in high esteem by other authorities on the subject.
Part of the benefit of looking to authorities on these matters is that they have been trained to slog through some of the issues mentioned above. Not that there's anything wrong with being an active participant in one's health care, but I have seen a disturbing pattern of "questioning authority" just BECAUSE that authority is seen as an authority, with little thought to WHY that authority is an authority, and the questioner is not (enjoy that sentence. I did.)
As a wise colleague of mine once said, "There's a reason it's called alternative medicine. If it worked, we'd call it medicine."
Another colleague whom I don't know, writing on the blog "Science Based Medicine," said this:
"The facts always change, or better words may be evolve or refined, with time. But facts matter to me. There is a world of facts derived from observation of the natural world and in the end my opinion on a topic medicine does not matter. It is what the facts indicate that should determine my opinions, not the other way around."
My main point isn't necessarily to slam alternative medicine, but to spark discussion about the thought process behind what I perceive as distrust, if not disdain for (not just from you, please understand) the "medical establishment."
Say on.
Hey, anonymous, I was here first.
ReplyDeleteand by that I mean I was responding to Mandy, not to your post.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I get for stirring the pot when there are doctors who read. :)
ReplyDeleteI didn't understand everything you said and I confess I glazed over at some parts, but I'll just reiterate my point and hope that it is clear.
I know we live longer now, and are healthier by and large. That's why I'm relieved and very happy that we have you guys.
But I'm going to be honest - and I'm not talking specifically to you two because this doesn't necessarily apply to you but to all the doctors and health professionals I've ever come into contact with as a general whole. There've been a good number of them that have turned me off to conventional medicine. I see greed at work over patient care, I see pride at work because some doctors would rather everyone blindly trust them than be informed themselves, and when a doctor cares more about his pride than his patient, that's going to be a barrier to good communication. There's also the matter of doctors being so preoccupied (perhaps with good reason) with their own protection over the best interests of their patients. Again - this is not personally directed at the two of you, because I do not know one of you from Adam and the other one I know supremely well enough to understand that this is NOT you and you are in fact one medical doctor whereas I may not agree with all your philosophies - I trust your heart.
And where the big stuff is concerned, we've got amazing resources today. For the stuff that doesn't kill us, yet makes our lives miserable, (and is what I usually suffer from)there are things people have been using for quite some time for relief or prevention. This is what I'm interested in. And no, I don't have time to do any large scale testing, of course, I'm just talking about trying things at home. In fact, I have before. And I'm going to have to add another comment because I'm being told this is too long...
I've been scoffed at and ridiculed by doctors enough times to know that my own research and careful observation of what ails me or mine is going to yield more results.
ReplyDeleteI'll provide examples. I have been to several different doctors over the years in regards to my problems with migraines and with the symptoms of PCOS. I was told quite an interesting variety of opinions, from my headaches being all in my imagination (this is the horrible pain, throwing up, not able to stand light or sound variety that sometimes land me in the ER) to hearing completely opposite things regaring the PCOS from different doctors, all talking to me as if they were completely right and I had no right to disagree. Both were treated with a variety of medicines. None of which did anything besides add new symptoms.
So, I gave up on the conventional side. I find it strange that in all my dealings with doctors over my headaches none of them ever suggested I eliminate MSG, artificial sweeteners, other preservatives or chemical laden foods. Guess what happened when I seriously got rid of all of the above? I have FAR LESS headaches. I have also found that drinking more water, not skipping meals, getting enough sleep helps as well. Never heard that in a doctor's office.
As for the PCOS - I gave up trying to get a doctor to talk to me seriously about this syndrome. I had all the symptoms, I wanted to lose weight and have children. No one was willing to help beyond giving me drugs. So I researched it myself, got an excellent book about eating the right things and taking the right supplements to conquer this disease. Guess what? I lost weight. I got pregnant. More than once. I felt better too. When I stop nursing my little guy this time and my body is somewhat cooperative I'm most likely going to go straight back to that book and remind myself how to do it again. (The losing weight part, not necessarily the fertility part - MacGyver, don't have a heart attack!)
Who knows? Maybe I've just been extremely unlucky in my dealings with doctors. I know there have to be a lot of good ones out there. But the honest truth is that I have had more success treating myself than I have ever had being treated by any doctor in the matter of the things that I suffer with the most - my weight, my fertility, and my headaches. I also have an intestinal disorder that as well I have had more success in treating with diet and lifestyle than with medicine.
Wow. Where did all that come from? I hope that my words will be taken to heart, not cause offense.
And my dear G, you absolutely do not fit into the category of doctors I have had these sort of dealings with. You always tell the truth as best you know it. I know you care about the people you treat and do your best for them. I may not always agree with what you've been taught, but I respect you and I will always weigh carefully what you say to me. You know I've leaned on you many times to help me understand the things that my family and I experience in regards to health.
Thanks for the comments!
What informs your disagreement with what I've been taught?
ReplyDelete"I find it strange that in all my dealings with doctors over my headaches none of them ever suggested I eliminate MSG, artificial sweeteners, other preservatives or chemical laden foods. Guess what happened when I seriously got rid of all of the above? I have FAR LESS headaches. I have also found that drinking more water, not skipping meals, getting enough sleep helps as well. Never heard that in a doctor's office."
ReplyDeleteI have long agreed with you that you seem to have been "unlucky" in your dealings with doctors- I've never been a fan of what you have told me of your particular doc; however, all of the above mentioned things are pretty standard lifestyle modification recommendations that most "good" doctors know and recommend when treating migraines - in a "conventional" way.
"I want to know whether it is a true statement or partially true or false, based on any myriad of reasons including what someone stands to gain by his claims."
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing you glazed over at this point:
"Will you be conducting your own randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled studies with great enough power to support your conclusions?"
I purposely put that sentence in there, manipulative though it may seem, to illustrate that there are objective ways to arrive at the conclusions the authorities reach, and that these methods require years of education and training to master, which is why deferring to those trained in these methods may be in the best interest of your, or dare I say, your children's health.
You say you weigh all I say carefully, but you admitted that you glazed over- what benefit is there to my training if your experience trumps it?
When you say you hope I will take what you say to heart, what does that mean? Shall I stop bugging you? Do you want me to stop offering insight into areas where I may have the benefit of a different fund of knowledge? Because that's no fun.
ReplyDeleteOoooooooh! This is gettin' good! :)
ReplyDeleteHeehee! You're just trying to sound smarter than me. And you don't have to try, because you are!
ReplyDeleteGwen sounds educated and helpful. Miranda sounds uneducated on this topic and trying to justify what she is choosing to do with her time. Any thoughts?
ReplyDeleteI of course try to keep my tone somewhat light most of the time, but I am in no way saying these things because I'm trying to sound smarter than you- I know you know this. I'm trying to spur deeper thought not just into the topic at hand, but in the handling of the discussion of the topic, if that makes sense- to point out that expertise is not to be dismissed because our opinion or experience may not line up with it, and that to do so can be frustrating at best, if not sometimes downright dangerous.
ReplyDeleteIf I have been given the benefit of a particular fund of knowledge and area of "expertise," I wouldn't be a good friend or sister if I didn't attempt to point out misinformation or offer insight into an area where understanding may be lacking, not because I'm smarter, but because I have been exposed to different things, things that have been objectively tested and shown to be true.
I know you weren't trying to sound smarter than me. I was just kidding because I was weary of the conversation and hoping we could drop it.
ReplyDeleteAnd you're right, which is exactly what I said before - I believe YOU know what you are talking about and use your knowledge for good and not for evil. But you will never convince me to blindly trust doctors after I have been through so many who obviously didn't care enough to know much about anything.
And I may sound like I don't know much about this - because I don't! It's something I'm interested in knowing more about. I wouldn't try anything on me or my family without being confident it wouldn't hurt us.
I'd never try to convince you to blindly trust doctors; it is precisely to help remove the blinders that I'm pressing this issue- and I am certainly not the best doctor, or the only doctor who cares, etc... sometimes I ask my patients who didn't appreciate the bedside manner of a particular skilled specialist "would you rather have somebody nice or somebody smart?"
ReplyDeleteI say this with tongue in cheek, but it's to illustrate the point that my motivations and niceness really don't matter ONE BIT when it comes to patient outcomes- what matters? The facts. Yes, there are many uncertain areas of medicine, however, much of the practice of medicine, impersonal though it may sound, can be boiled down to facts. My wonderful bedside manner is icing on the cake. It may make the experience more enjoyable for me to discuss my patient's hobbies with them, or to know a little bit more about their family or their pets or their hopes and dreams, but really, when it comes to patient outcomes, with of course a few exceptions, none of that really matters. What matters are the facts of pathophysiology, of pharmacology, of genetics- facts that generations of scientists have been studying and re-studying- often with little or no personal gain at stake - all in the interest of improving on the knowledge and applying it to help save lives.
I'm curious- do you think that EVERY doctor you've ever had really didn't care about you as a person, or only wanted your co-pay, or purposely tried to withhold information or steer you in the wrong direction? It's quite possible they may not have been the best at communicating their knowledge and expertise, but that doesn't mean it needs to be dismissed or their motives falsely interpreted as being proud greedy heartless wretches. Unless they were all surgeons.
Don't give up on the conversation! This is what you wanted when you started this blog.
"Unless they were all surgeons" Hahahaha! Good one.
ReplyDeleteI'm not giving up. And this wasn't exactly my idea. Apparently God thinks I need to not be so afraid of confrontation. It's probably giving me an ulcer.
I wasn't really referring to niceness. I don't really care if my dr. is nice or not, but what is frustrating is if they don't care enough to seriously do anything to help me besides throwing drug prescriptions at me. This may not be their fault though, because I know you've said it's frustrating because you have a long line of people in your office wanting prescriptions for aches and pains they've pretty much caused themselves. So maybe doctors are just expecting that no one will really listen to them if they tell them they have to do anything.
I can't really judge any doctor's motives. But I can be proactive when there is something I REALLY want to get under control.
Mandy, maybe it's just Columbus doctors? :P I seem to have the same luck as you. No offense to Gwen or any other doctor like her, but it is a fact that the majority of doctors seem to be more worried about themselves or finding the easy way out than listening and genuinely caring for the patient.
ReplyDeleteThe only doctor I've found in this area to do both of those was my reproductive specialist. I'm very thankful too, because I needed that concern and care at that time.
I have no problem conceding to the fact that doctors do know more about 'medical' things, and I know they treat many people simply seeking a simple fix or medication, and I think it has dulled many of the doctors bedside manner. And I'm sure they're pretty sick of WebMd and hearing self-diagnoses.
All that to say, I do understand, BUT it would be nice to have a doctor treat me as an individual and listen instead of lumping me into the mold of all the others and assume.
I will put a side note on here to say this is VERY fresh on my heart because of dealing with doctors with Bryan. His neurologist did FOUR tests of different nature to see if his symptoms were MS, and ALL FOUR came back NEGATIVE. But instead of listening to us and looking for other possibilities, he STILL wanted to treat him for MS. We will be seeing a new neurologist in the end of October.
I'm sure your intent wasn't to start a debate about how bad doctors are. ;) I think I understand your point though. Keep writing! :)
Welcome to the party, Amy :)
ReplyDeleteMandy and I both hate confrontation, so this is an exercise for both of us.
I'd like to ask you about this statement:
"...it is a fact that the majority of doctors seem to be more worried about themselves or finding the easy way out than listening and genuinely caring for the patient."
I think that's painting with a broad brush, and wonder what the basis for that statement is. Thanks!
Maybe Amy and Miranda have erroneous ideas of what constitutes genuine caring. Seriously, what form does it take, and why do you expect a professional to adhere to your (likely erroneous) prior perceptions of what "genuine care" looks like. Do you expect it from all your professionals. Does your plumber or cable repairman genuinely care for you. You of course have the right to shop around for a physician you click with, but if your idea of clicking with you is agreeing with your woo, when they have evidence and science backed knowledge that will offer you a better health outcome, then your shopping around will be at your disadvantage (or your children's). Except of course unless you are someone who needs to create a narrative about every one of their health ailments, and a positive health outcome requires a narrative in which one paints oneself as being done in by the health profession, thereby benefiting from a woe-is-me construct that is contrary to reality. Often individuals don't realize how non-individual they are when they are innocently and unknowingly self-centered. When one sees and treats thousands of patients over the course of a year, I imagine those people are much less individual on a medical and physiological than they believe themselves to be.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a big fan of confrontation myself, which is why I'm late in responding. ;)
ReplyDeleteBy that statement I meant that our society has 'scared' doctors out of comprehensive treatment in many ways because of lawsuits, and doctors are 'controlled' (or maybe I should say limited) by health insurance (which is an entirely different discussion).
I think (which means MY OPINION) that doctors are used to it and don't expand treatment because of these things. It's 'easier' to give a medication and send them on their way than deal with a possible lawsuit or lack of coverage by insurance (or no insurance at all).
And I don't believe it is the doctors fault.
Maybe my idea of genuine care is construed (speaking for myself not for Mandy). HOWEVER, I'm pretty sure genuine care DOES NOT mean a doctor telling a patient they are not having the symptoms the patient describes because they don't make sense (personal story) only to realize later on they did make sense for what was later diagnosed (after pushing the doctor).
I'm pretty sure it also doesn't mean a doctor refusing to do a possibly necessary treatment because the insurance doesn't cover it, only to do it on the patient's dime (after they begged) and realize it was stage 3 cancer (personal story of a friend).
And as I mentioned before, when the symptoms don't match up with what the doctor thinks or expects, yet refuses to look at any other options but wanting to treat what he thinks it is anyway without medical evidence (a VERY expensive treatment for the patient even with insurance), and leaving the real problem to continue to get worse... THAT is NOT genuine care.
I would hope that your definition of geniune care includes these as well.
I'm faced every day with "refusing" to order tests because of cost- but it's not because I don't want to- and more often my patients refuse (or decline) testing because they just can't afford it. In my work at an under-served clinic, I have to be very creative and resourceful, and sometimes go "off-label" with my treatment plans, not because I'm looking for the easy way out, but because resources are limited. I'm very open with my patients that "this isn't the way the textbooks say to do it" - and most of the time things work out OK, when we've reached the understanding that we have to work within the resources available to us for any variety of reasons. Sometimes, though, testing truly isn't indicated, and can carry with it more risks than potential benefits (not concerning costs), and unfortunately sometimes it comes down to a numbers game- again, part of the science of statistics and evidence-based medicine, which people have spent their entire careers studying. There will always be statistical anomalies, and it sucks when you happen to be the statistical anomaly, but please don't think it's because we don't care or are trying to withhold care or just practice CYA medicine (cover your a**) :o
ReplyDeleteGwen, I think you are in the place where your creativity can lead you to become a superior doctor. Not that many will listen to you, at least not at first, but you are in the right place to encourage people to change their lives in order to improve their health. Most of the "tests" and medications I've ever had or taken have not helped me become healthier. Making changes in my life have.
ReplyDeleteMaybe our society is at a turning point where we've realized that the way we are doing things just isn't going to work financially or health-wise in the long run. Who will be the pioneers that will revamp the system and lead us all into a healthier and happier place?
"Making changes in my life have."
ReplyDeleteNo no no. "Making changes in my life HAS."
:)
ok, i don't hear mandy (or anyone else) saying that they aren't grateful for medical expertise. my husband is a type 1 diabetic, so if anyone is grateful for modern medicine, it's us! a century ago, he'd be dead. today, thanks to the invention of artificial insulin, he can live a semi normal life. we'll take it!
ReplyDeleteall i hear these women saying is that for things like headaches, weight struggles, getting pregnant ("things that don't kill us"), they are weighing other options. not treatment, but lifestyle and natural choices in the preventative category.
if more people lived this way, hospitals and drs offices wouldn't be crammed full of people who are there either by the results of poor lifestyle choices or ailments that aren't really serious medical concerns...thus allowing doctors to focus on what they do best: helping sick people get better.
so....what's the problem?
exactly Kathy. Thank you. I agree completely
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely!!! Me too.
ReplyDeleteI don't think anybody suggested ingratitude...I think the conversation was just naturally evolving (shh, I used an un-baptist word) as different sub-topics arose, and I think my main point is to try to support the notion of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater (because the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends against that). Thanks for playing, everybody!
ReplyDeleteJust a question, would most of you all describe yourselves as unhealthy based on a life time of poor health decisions (poor eating, lack of exercise, &c.) for which you only have yourselves to blame. Because if you are the medical community has been advising against your choices for decades.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing, bloggers, lurkers, and commenters alike..
ReplyDeleteThis discussion has me thinking about this on a broader level- look back at this thread and see how many times it was said or implied "My experience and how I feel about it is the most important factor in my decisions and/or beliefs." (I won't quote, but scroll back and you'll find them). Yet how many times are we told in sermons and Bible studies "Don't trust your experience" (eg, the heart is deceitful above all and desperately wicked, who can know it? or the many admonitions to not trust our emotions or experiences, etc)
How do we reconcile these?
for one thing gwen,you are sort of implying we're sinning if we disagree with you. i'm not sure you meant it that way, but that's how it looks. learning from experience where health and diet are concerned are NOT sins. it is NOT a sin to disagree with a doctor. it is NOT a sin to grow herbs (well, legal herbs ;) so i don't think it's valid to compare trusting ones emotions when God's Word says something different to making little decisions about what to eat and how to deal with a headache.
ReplyDeletewe all lean on experience. how do i know the best way to change my squirrelly 2 year old's diaper? because i've done it thousands of times. how do i know how long to let the chicken brown on each side when i'm making dinner? b/c i've been there, done that. as a doctor, you lean on your experience every day b/c you've seen thousands of patients exhibiting the exact same symptoms. you know what works.
again, i wonder why this is so offensive?
I'm apparently not communicating very well. I'm not offended - especially growing up in the fundy environment, I've come to hate that word and the way it's misapplied. My exploration of the thought process and encouragement of others to do the same (to think about how they're thinking and what they're saying) doesn't mean I'm offended - frustrated perhaps, but I'm merely trying to shed some light on what I see as inconsistency in thought patterns and areas where we may not realize that we have blind spots.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that disagreeing with me is sinful never for a second entered my mind. I'm not saying leaning on experience is sinful, I'm just saying it's interesting that in some areas of life it's condemned, and in other areas it seems to be an OK criterion for decision making. That's all.
Also I think maybe I should have been more specific. I'm talking about when experience and facts seem to conflict, choosing our experience over what the facts would otherwise indicate (again, for example, if I have awareness of an objective fact, but my experience somehow seems to differ from that fact, what makes me think my experience is more reliable than those facts? How do I determine that?) etc.
ReplyDeleteah, the old mulder vs. scully scenario. ;) i go back and forth.
ReplyDeleteWhat brand of Christian theology suggests that disagreement with another individual is a sin, as commenter sethswife seems to adhere to (in this particular case)? Of note, I can't find a reader of commenter Gwen's comment who in any way thinks Gwen is "implying" that someone is "sinning" who might disagree with her. I would be interested in sethswifes introspective remarks about why she individually read into it in such a way.
ReplyDeleteoh for pete's sake dude. i don't think you really care about my viewpoints, but you do enjoy perpetuating disagreements.
ReplyDeletethe verse gwen pointed to (the heart is deceitful...) refers to guarding against sin. that's why i wondered if she was implying that referring to one's experience to make daily living health choices was sin. but she explained that she was not, and i understand now. let's all move on.
something tells me you'll have more to say however.
Mulder vs. Scully is a good way to sum up. And you can't have one without the other! Or if you do it's just plain no fun.
ReplyDeleteI feel a song coming on....